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This page (revision-16) was last changed on 07-Aug-2007 08:20 by KeithMashinter  

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There is the wiki concept, and the wikipedia content.. being compatible with wikipedia as an early goal would be an immense boost for jspwiki, even if its not a main goal.
--davidm, 05-Feb-2007
I read a lot of definitive ''should''s and ''should not''s above — rather strident rhetoric — yet my experience on the Internet over the last 20 years or so has suggested that there is nothing definitive about popularity — it has little to do with usability, stability, longevity, or anything else. This is a bit like quoting web log statistics at people. Wikipedia is certainly the most popular wiki in the world, but it's hardly typical, and one might remember that the vast majority of its pages are edited by a relatively small number of people; the viewership is enormous whilst the editorship is not, so people's experience with the syntax isn't as wide as might be implied by the tone of your message, which is almost eschatological. In contrast, there are millions of people editing hundreds of thousands of wikis that aren't in Wikimedia format. The diversity of the wiki community may be seen as a bane, but advocating that JSPWiki dump its native format doesn't necessarily provide it or the larger wiki community with any ''real'' added benefit. Some of these are the same arguments made for Esperanto. If people want to use Wikimedia's notation they are much more likely to simply use the Wikimedia engine. (This coming from someone who's been previously involved in and an advocate for InterWiki and other interchange efforts.)
I rather doubt that due to Wikipedia's popularity its syntax will become an "emerging standard" or "de facto standard" for wikitext. Wikipedia is atypical, just as is Google. I was on both the IETF and W3C HTML Working Groups, developing specifications for HTML and XHTML that are widely understood as "standards", but in terms of ''real'' usage (i.e., actual conformance of the majority of web documents to their claimed specifications) could hardly be claimed to be either an "emerging standard" or "de facto standard" — and we're talking __HTML__ here! So I simply don't see the arguments you make so strongly as being supported by any relevant evidence, other than the popularity of one atypical wiki site — no matter how popular.
%%(padding:0.2em 0 0.5em 2em; font-style:italic)
Changing code is easy. Changing data is hard.
This statement has things completely backwards, so let's get one other thing straight: writing relatively bug-free, high quality code in a collaborative environment is not easy, it's ''extremely difficult'' — witness how few successful, stable, quality projects there are out there, even commercially-funded ones — whereas while changing data is not trivial, it's hardly difficult, as attested by the common import and export features of software packages, as well as tools such as awk, sed, XSLT, and many others. It's a lot harder to change human behaviour, and building a community of wiki users only to slap them in the face by changing the editing syntax they've grown accustomed to could hardly be a recommended action. The JSPWiki user and developer community has a substantial investment in its installed base of software, documentation, training, and expertise, and we'd be jeopardizing all of that by making the changes suggested above. This is likely true of most wiki communities, hence the resistance to the ''One Language For All'' arguments, which can become a distraction from doing other, more important, work.
-- MurrayAltheim
Guys, this is obviously a troll. Let it go. I see these "you must all adopt mediawiki/tikiwiki/foobarwiki or your wiki is DOOMED!" -people come up every now and then, and they always go away once they've had their rant.
(There are many obvious reasons why this discussion is, in the end, rather irrelevant, but people rarely stop to think about them. However, the way that the original article was written was so obnoxious that I couldn't be bothered to use any more of my time in responding.)
-- JanneJalkanen
It's fine for you to have your own thing going on, but I don't know why you'd want to discard someone else's considered opinion so rudely, compatibility is really not such a surprising thing to want. Maybe it's the server attacks. I hope you can get it together.
--davidm, 06-Feb-2007
I support this proposal.
The main obstacle to using Wikis for internal purposes are the different markup languages.
It is difficult to move an internal wiki knowledge base to another wiki engine and everybody has to learn many wiki markup languages (for example because he works for many projects).
Therefore we standardize on MediaWiki markup. The MediaWiki engine is ok and easy to install.
We would like to use JspWiki for our internal project wikis, but it is not
possible because it uses yet another Wiki markup format and conversion is difficult.
--Christian Vester, 12-April-20076
Hmm... to ''try'' to satisfy everybody... why not propose that the folks who want to support Mediawiki (or ''other'') markup formats create a pluggable mechanism/extension for JSPWiki, and then provide the various markup modules, as well as create the markup converters?
--SteveLin, 06-Jul-2007
We already have nascent WikiCreole support in the 2.5.x development branch so it's demonstrably possible to build a MediaWiki parser as an alternative to the native one already in JSPWiki. If you're willing to do the coding, documentation, testing and provide maintenance on that code you're quite welcome to create that pluggable mechanism and the necessary markup converters. From my understanding of the core JSPWiki team we're all pretty busy with the project and our own associated projects so this is not a very high priority — we don't have spare cycles to devote to compatibility with other projects before getting our own done. If this is a real priority for someone, I can only suggest devoting the resources to make it happen, otherwise this will remain indefinitely in the realm of ''ideas''.
-- MurrayAltheim, 06-July-2007
I'd have to go with Murray here. I don't think anyone from the core team has any interest whatsoever in the Mediawiki markup - we're all busy with more important things.
Besides, I think the discussion is pointless anyway. WikiMarkup as such is an aberrance which must go away, and we shall all move to WYSIWYG editing. So I would much rather get good editors than muck around in the incredible mess which comes when you try to support multiple markup languages.
--JanneJalkanen, 06-Jul-2007
And, in addition, adopting Mediawiki format would force us to limit our functionality to whatever Mediawiki offers. If we have more or fewer features, our markup would not be compatible, and you would be screwed in exactly the same, though far more subtle and annoying way.
WikiCreole is as far as I'm willing to go, because that should work across ''all'' engines in the future.
--JanneJalkanen, 06-Jul-2007
I just would like to add: we [just released Creole 1.0 two days ago|]. Take a look at it, you will find many familiar elements with Mediawiki markup (Headings, links). A wiki offering creole therefore should make it also more appealing to Wikipedians.
--ChristophSauer, 06-Jul-2007
I agree that that we don't need one ring to rule them all. It makes sense to allow variants with each having a way to switch to or translate through a common standard like WikiCreole. The only annoying JSPWiki markup is the single-bracket links ([[link]) where a single-bracket is often part of my notes or quick code excerpts.
--KeithMashinter, 07-Aug-2007
Version Date Modified Size Author Changes ... Change note
16 07-Aug-2007 08:20 11.741 kB KeithMashinter to previous Comment by KeithMashinter
15 06-Jul-2007 14:29 11.365 kB ChristophSauer to previous | to last Creole shares important markup elements with Mediawiki
14 06-Jul-2007 12:37 11.024 kB JanneJalkanen to previous | to last Comment by JanneJalkanen
13 06-Jul-2007 12:34 10.595 kB JanneJalkanen to previous | to last Comment by JanneJalkanen
12 06-Jul-2007 02:50 10.081 kB MurrayAltheim to previous | to last response to Yet Another Proposal for MediaWiki support
11 06-Jul-2007 00:56 9.223 kB SteveLin to previous | to last Comment by SteveLin
10 12-Apr-2007 10:52 8.912 kB to previous | to last
9 12-Apr-2007 10:51 8.902 kB to previous | to last
8 06-Feb-2007 22:12 8.298 kB davidm to previous | to last Comment by davidm
7 06-Feb-2007 14:43 7.995 kB to previous | to last
6 06-Feb-2007 02:02 7.457 kB MurrayAltheim to previous | to last response
5 06-Feb-2007 01:00 6.309 kB MurrayAltheim to previous | to last response
4 05-Feb-2007 22:10 4.065 kB davidm to previous | to last Comment by davidm
3 05-Feb-2007 18:15 3.853 kB ChristophSauer to previous | to last use creole
2 05-Feb-2007 18:12 3.853 kB ChristophSauer to previous | to last use creole
1 05-Feb-2007 15:53 3.554 kB to last
« This page (revision-16) was last changed on 07-Aug-2007 08:20 by KeithMashinter